Yours is a good, feminine perspective on why the Manhanttan document has things in it that aren’t on Christ’s agenda. (and is missing some glaring things that *are* on Christ’s agenda.) I welcome your points and am thankful you have the courage to share them!

When I was in seminary I had certain professors who for a time won me over to the view that we as Christians need to be engaged in the political and cultural “battles” of our time, and defend many of the principles and ideas that showed up in this declaration. At that time in my life I probably would have signed this, or something like it.

One day, many months later, I was listening to a radio program to which I regularly listened to. The host was exhorting me to action on yet another “urgent” threat to our Christian beliefs, and painted what he saw as a dire picture of the consequences of not taking action. I felt my heart sink. I felt spiritually exhausted.

It occurred to me at or near that point there was something just plain wrong in the tone of the radio program–something I later identified in myself as “fear.” The picture of the world this person on the radio was describing (if I did not take immediate action!) was very much like Rome during the time of the early Church. But wait! Didn’t Christ make radical changes in the world of the early Church through the lives of the people that made up the Church?

The pieces finally fit for me (a lot of pieces, actually) after listening to a sermon from Alistair Begg entitled “The Kingdom of God” (#1950). It isn’t a very polished sermon, and definitely has Alistair’s “rough edges” in it–even some “snarkiness.” But it struck such a chord with me as to reignite the passions in me for Christ that led me to want to attend seminary in the first place.

I mention this because in a recent letter to the Truth for Life mailing list, Alistair explained his decision not to sign the Manhattan Declaration. Unfortunately, I don’t think I have the letter itself, but I’m reminded of the passion of his sermon.

I put it this way: God is not building an earthly kingdom, but a “Kingdom of Heaven.” While we as Christians are engaged in a war, it is not a war against human wisdom, human culture, human legal systems, human legislative or judicial principles, etc. but against Satan and his forces. It is a spiritual battle fought with spiritual weapons to people a spiritual kingdom with sinners like myself. Sinful humans doing sinful things are not the enemy, but part of the list of casualties–the folks we as Christians are supposed to be engaged in helping into the Kingdom.

Finally, our allies in the battle for souls cannot include people who disagree with fundamentals of Christian doctrine, but agree on some common ground of ethics for the purposes of defending Christian principles on human terms. I know there are names on the Manhattan Document representing ideas that deny Christ. For me, singing would be as much about failing to stand in what I am “for” as it would be identifying with things I’m “against.” It sounds too much like one of those radio programs.

Mark

Although I’m not a “Christian” in the conventional sense of that term, I attempt to practice a genuine, sincere, life attuned to honoring and serving something greater than the self-centered dictates of my ego. Your voice (just found via a fortunate series of links) rings with a rare and courageous truth that seeks to transcend arbitrary, divisive, human-created barriers that block communion with The One. Thank you.

(You’ll be getting a pingback from my blog in a sec, but I just wanted to give you a real reply, too.)

http://cornerstone-forum.blogspot.com/2009/12/tone-is-revealing.html

I also intend to link to it from my own blogsite at http://thebentangle.wordpress.com/

Thank you.

‘

Some quick initial thoughts on the Manhattan Declaration.

I am against abortions, but I could not in good conscience sign onto this document for the following reasons.

It is not really pro-life, merely just anti abortion.

For the document fails to speak in detail about war, or euthanasia. It does state, “And so ours is, as it must be, a truly consistent ethic of love and life for all humans in all circumstances.” So would the Manhattan Declaration be saying that all war is immoral because in all war innocent people are killed? This, in my opinion, needs significant clarification. Is the Manhattan Declaration a call for absolute pacifism? That seems unclear to me.

For example, the Manhattan Declaration states, “Because we honor justice and the common good, we will not comply with any edict that purports to compel our institutions to participate in abortions, embryo-destructive research, assisted suicide and euthanasia, or any other anti-life act…”

So would the M.Dec declare that registry for the draft is immoral because it can lead to serving in war, or having parishioners in the armed services is immoral because war always has anti-life effects?

But my biggest concern is that by stating, “We must be willing to defend, even at risk and cost to ourselves and our institutions, the lives of our brothers and sisters at every stage of development and in every condition.” The Manhattan Declaration may be encouraging violence.

Is the Manhattan Declaration using a sort of “Just War” ideology in the case of abortion? If so, would they justify the shooting of abortion doctors as a “way of defending” the unborn?

Quoting from link below “Scott Roeder, the man who’s charged with the murder of Dr. George Tiller, has argued that he was justified in killing the abortion provider because it would prevent abortions.”

http://www.kansascity.com/440/story/1588810.html

Quoting: “Scott Roeder, when asked if he killed Dr. George Tiller, replies, ‘That is correct.’ But he says the killing was justified because ‘preborn children’ were in danger.”
http://tinyurl.com/yku9fnz

Paul Hill, the Presbyterian Pastor who killed the abortion doctor in Florida claimed a “necessity defense” in his actions. I believe Paul Hill was executed for his actions in 2003?

Quoting: “It is certain that we should use the means necessary to defend the innocent, and since the unborn are innocent, it is equally certain that we should use the means necessary to defend them.” written by Paul Hill.

In my opinion it is eerily echoing the Manhattan Declaration.
http://www.armyofgod.com/PHillBookForward.html

I believe that some people may read the Manhattan Declaration as a literal call to arms and do violence against abortion doctors and clinic workers.

I also see an inherent tension, and perhaps an unsolvable dilemma with the call for “religious liberty” and the M. Dec’s frequent call for putting things into law. It did remind me of those who claim that some Christians want a theocracy.

How can there be religious liberty and freedom of conscience if the law requires a certain viewpoint?
So, while I agree with some aspects of the Manhattan Declaration, I could never sign on to it.

In Christ’s service,

John Thornton

I have not heard of this declaration.

I don’t get out much.

One of the things that I try to help others understand when they are comforting, or helping another through a difficulty, is that they can’t let their own “stuff” get in the way. Rarely will we argue others into believing what we want them to believe, or change they way they feel about certain issues. Our stuff gets in the way. Before long, love is left behind…anger dominates. I am of like mind with you that love has to come first. If we find ourselves reacting too strongly emotionally, we need to ask ourselves what is going on with us…not them. We cannot help others, or lead others to Christ, or out of sin, if condemnation is our primary language.

Anyway. That’s what I think. Thanks for boldly speaking your thoughts. Brave lady.

That is how I came across this blog. I appreciate the things you have said. I would simply like to say to you that in addition to some of the good things you have said, there is a more fundamental reason to reject it.

We, as Christians, are to be completely in subjection to Jesus the Christ and Him only. He is the head over all things to the church. Jesus says that we cannot serve two masters, else we will cleve to one while forsaking the other, or else we will love the one and despise the other. This means that the true Church is to be dedicated to the word of God, which is the Holy Bible. We may not pledge our allegiance to a humanly written creed book. This is how the denominations have gone astray. They believe that they are Christians but they are sworn to uphold there humanly authored books of creeds, church disciplines, and church doctrine.

These writings clearly are not the Word of God. There ministers are sworn to uphold these things and if they choose to cleve to the Bible they will forsake the creed book and be excommunicated, or disfellowshipped, etc. Instead, they cleve to their creed books and forsake the Bible. In spite of any appearances, they do indeed forsake the Bible and our Lord Jesus Christ. We do not need a Catechism or creed book. We have God’s Word. This is to be the foundation of our faith and unity, rather than an agreement to disagree, agreeably, on the basis of humanly authored creed books.

“Unification” by the power of men will never compare to the unity that comes from the Truth. Jesus prayed in John 17: 17 that His Father would sanctify His apostles by His Truth, and then indicated that it is His Word that is that Truth. He then prayed saying that in addition to praying for His Apostles, he prayed also for all those who would believe on Him through their (the Apostles) word, and that they would all be one (John 17: 20-21).

God’s church is not a denomination. You cannot find salvation in a denomination. Being a member of a denomination will never bring one to salvation. The true church, often referred to simply as the church of Christ, is alive today, and it is to be holy and sanctified. We can not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. What fellowship does light have with darkness? What part does a believer have with an unbeliever (2 Cor. 6: 14-15)? I would exhort you to seek for it. Please go to the website I have submitted and please diligently seek God. Test all things and hold fast that which may be proven true (1 Thes. 5: 21).

The Bible teaches some amazing things about true love and salvation. I think you would greatly appreciate it. Please consider these important things. Thank you and God bless.